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	<title>Comments on: Are folksonomies really the better way?</title>
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	<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/</link>
	<description>A blog about family, technology, and libraries</description>
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		<title>By: <![CDATA[NeoArch &#187; To fopac or not to fopac?]]></title>
		<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1558</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NeoArch &#187; To fopac or not to fopac?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://familymanlibrarian.com/?p=408#comment-1558</guid>
		<description>[...] The Family Man Librarian has a post with interesting insights on the subject of folksonomic OPACs (or fopacs as I like to call them). I think he is correct when he says, After thinking about this further, I am wondering if Iâ€™m pursuing this from a logical point of view as an â€œeither/orâ€ situation. (Taxonomies or folksonomies.) Instead I think it is really, or will really be, a â€œboth/andâ€ situation. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Family Man Librarian has a post with interesting insights on the subject of folksonomic OPACs (or fopacs as I like to call them). I think he is correct when he says, After thinking about this further, I am wondering if Iâ€™m pursuing this from a logical point of view as an â€œeither/orâ€ situation. (Taxonomies or folksonomies.) Instead I think it is really, or will really be, a â€œboth/andâ€ situation. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: <![CDATA[Steve]]></title>
		<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 22:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://familymanlibrarian.com/?p=408#comment-1557</guid>
		<description>Mother, I like the definition fo folksonomy given by Answers.com &lt;a hef=&quot;http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=folksonomy&amp;gwp=13 target=&quot;_new&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  And the fact that links to further information are available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mother, I like the definition fo folksonomy given by Answers.com <a hef="http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=folksonomy&#038;gwp=13 target="_new" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  And the fact that links to further information are available.</p>
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		<title>By: <![CDATA[Mother]]></title>
		<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1556</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mother]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 21:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://familymanlibrarian.com/?p=408#comment-1556</guid>
		<description>O.k., so what does folksonomies mean to some of us old folks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>O.k., so what does folksonomies mean to some of us old folks?</p>
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		<title>By: <![CDATA[Steve]]></title>
		<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://familymanlibrarian.com/?p=408#comment-1555</guid>
		<description>Tim,

Thanks for this thoughtful comment.  I agree with you that folksonomies and taxonomies will coexist; that there are areas where one is more useful or relevant than the other.  Thanks also for articulating some of what I was trying to get at, especially when you wrote about the discussion in favor of tagging has taken place in an intellectual vacuum.

As I noted to you separately in an email, I would like to take you up on your offer to somehow utilize what you&#039;ve built for academic research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>Thanks for this thoughtful comment.  I agree with you that folksonomies and taxonomies will coexist; that there are areas where one is more useful or relevant than the other.  Thanks also for articulating some of what I was trying to get at, especially when you wrote about the discussion in favor of tagging has taken place in an intellectual vacuum.</p>
<p>As I noted to you separately in an email, I would like to take you up on your offer to somehow utilize what you&#8217;ve built for academic research.</p>
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		<title>By: <![CDATA[Tim Spalding]]></title>
		<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1554</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Spalding]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 01:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://familymanlibrarian.com/?p=408#comment-1554</guid>
		<description>I hope you&#039;ll forgive a long-ish reaction. 

I think Web 2.0 boostersâ€”I am excluding myselfâ€”too often pretend to a superiority over &quot;traditional cataloging&quot; that is under-informed an unearned. The web is, of course, full of boosterism and ignorance, and the din of this can, I imagine, set a librarian&#039;s teeth on edge. 

But these tendencies are hardly restricted to the worst stuff. Take, for example, Clay Shirky&#039;s &quot;Ontology is Overrated,&quot; in my mind the most intelligent and persuasive argument for tagging against &quot;traditional&quot; classification. About half the talk is devoted to the shortcomings of the Dewey Decimal and LC Call Number systems: They are limited to one subject because a book can only live one place on a shelf; they are inflexible because renumbering millions of books would be impracticable; they are as non-objective and impermanent as tags because Dewey allocated more numbering space to Christianity than to Islam, and so on and on. It&#039;s all true to some degree, but too full of cheap shots and lacking in context. Your point about the Web 2.0 assertion that librarians never considered users&#039; needs is well taken. Nor do things come out quite the same way with LC Subject Headings. Worse, the whole argument for tagging takes places in an intellectual vacuum, as if librarians hadn&#039;t been talking about these issues for centuries, and as if librarians and Del.icio.us users were trying to solve the same problem, and librarians were just worse at it.

As you note, presuming your point and proving it are not the same thing. SOMEBODY has to test this stuff. On balance, I&#039;m excited about folksonomies. Even without rigorous testing, I think it&#039;s clear there are SOME domains in which they make more sense than traditional cataloging, or, for example, full text searching. But is that true for libraries? I don&#039;t know. I&#039;d like to see some data before making up my mind whether, as you put it, tags are a &quot;better way of organizing information broadly.&quot;

In my gut, I think the answer is that the question is misframed. There is no &quot;best&quot; or &quot;better&quot; way of organizing information. Organization is not a end but a means. &quot;Better&quot; for what? For whom? Under what circumstances? When the dust settles I expect tags to take their place alongside other ways of finding stuffâ€”good for some things, worse for others.* Other new ways, like full text searches or &quot;people who own X also own Y&quot; statistics of LibraryThing, will also be there, how prominently we can only guess. In any case, professional cataloging will not go away.

Lastly, let me put in a personal plea. Won&#039;t SOMEONE take me up on my offer to put LibraryThing data at the service of academia? LibraryThing has 2.6 million tagsâ€”FAR more than Amazon or any other book service. And they&#039;re about BOOKS, not websites, restaurants or snapshots. Isn&#039;t there some enterprising library science grad student who wants what I got?

*Footnote on useful and un-useful tags:

As Shirky argues, no library has a &quot;queer&quot; classification, yet &quot;queer&quot; means a lot to a lot of people. Armistead Maupin&#039;s _Tales of the City_ is one of LibraryThing&#039;s top &quot;queer&quot; books (http://www.librarything.com/catalog/24748). The LC subject headings are &quot;City and town life&quot; and &quot;Humorous stories.&quot; In this case,  I think tags come out on top. Nobody searches for &quot;city and town life&quot; &quot;humorous stories&quot;â€”not unless they want the City Mouse and the Country Mouse. Users&#039; tagging here also produces some good reading suggestions.

But there are just as many cases where tags fall down. For example, I use the tag &quot;magic&quot; to apply to my collection of academic monographs on Greek and Roman magic, with some cross-cultural comparanda. On LibraryThing, once I leave my own catalog, magic is entirely taken over by fantasy books. 

There might be some algorithmic way to mitigate the context-less nature of tagsâ€”for a program to see that magic &quot;clusters&quot; in different waysâ€”but the core problem will never go away. The advantages of taggingâ€”brevity, spontaneity, low barriers to entry, etc.â€”are also its disadvantages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you&#8217;ll forgive a long-ish reaction. </p>
<p>I think Web 2.0 boostersâ€”I am excluding myselfâ€”too often pretend to a superiority over &#8220;traditional cataloging&#8221; that is under-informed an unearned. The web is, of course, full of boosterism and ignorance, and the din of this can, I imagine, set a librarian&#8217;s teeth on edge. </p>
<p>But these tendencies are hardly restricted to the worst stuff. Take, for example, Clay Shirky&#8217;s &#8220;Ontology is Overrated,&#8221; in my mind the most intelligent and persuasive argument for tagging against &#8220;traditional&#8221; classification. About half the talk is devoted to the shortcomings of the Dewey Decimal and LC Call Number systems: They are limited to one subject because a book can only live one place on a shelf; they are inflexible because renumbering millions of books would be impracticable; they are as non-objective and impermanent as tags because Dewey allocated more numbering space to Christianity than to Islam, and so on and on. It&#8217;s all true to some degree, but too full of cheap shots and lacking in context. Your point about the Web 2.0 assertion that librarians never considered users&#8217; needs is well taken. Nor do things come out quite the same way with LC Subject Headings. Worse, the whole argument for tagging takes places in an intellectual vacuum, as if librarians hadn&#8217;t been talking about these issues for centuries, and as if librarians and Del.icio.us users were trying to solve the same problem, and librarians were just worse at it.</p>
<p>As you note, presuming your point and proving it are not the same thing. SOMEBODY has to test this stuff. On balance, I&#8217;m excited about folksonomies. Even without rigorous testing, I think it&#8217;s clear there are SOME domains in which they make more sense than traditional cataloging, or, for example, full text searching. But is that true for libraries? I don&#8217;t know. I&#8217;d like to see some data before making up my mind whether, as you put it, tags are a &#8220;better way of organizing information broadly.&#8221;</p>
<p>In my gut, I think the answer is that the question is misframed. There is no &#8220;best&#8221; or &#8220;better&#8221; way of organizing information. Organization is not a end but a means. &#8220;Better&#8221; for what? For whom? Under what circumstances? When the dust settles I expect tags to take their place alongside other ways of finding stuffâ€”good for some things, worse for others.* Other new ways, like full text searches or &#8220;people who own X also own Y&#8221; statistics of LibraryThing, will also be there, how prominently we can only guess. In any case, professional cataloging will not go away.</p>
<p>Lastly, let me put in a personal plea. Won&#8217;t SOMEONE take me up on my offer to put LibraryThing data at the service of academia? LibraryThing has 2.6 million tagsâ€”FAR more than Amazon or any other book service. And they&#8217;re about BOOKS, not websites, restaurants or snapshots. Isn&#8217;t there some enterprising library science grad student who wants what I got?</p>
<p>*Footnote on useful and un-useful tags:</p>
<p>As Shirky argues, no library has a &#8220;queer&#8221; classification, yet &#8220;queer&#8221; means a lot to a lot of people. Armistead Maupin&#8217;s _Tales of the City_ is one of LibraryThing&#8217;s top &#8220;queer&#8221; books (<a href="http://www.librarything.com/catalog/24748" rel="nofollow">http://www.librarything.com/catalog/24748</a>). The LC subject headings are &#8220;City and town life&#8221; and &#8220;Humorous stories.&#8221; In this case,  I think tags come out on top. Nobody searches for &#8220;city and town life&#8221; &#8220;humorous stories&#8221;â€”not unless they want the City Mouse and the Country Mouse. Users&#8217; tagging here also produces some good reading suggestions.</p>
<p>But there are just as many cases where tags fall down. For example, I use the tag &#8220;magic&#8221; to apply to my collection of academic monographs on Greek and Roman magic, with some cross-cultural comparanda. On LibraryThing, once I leave my own catalog, magic is entirely taken over by fantasy books. </p>
<p>There might be some algorithmic way to mitigate the context-less nature of tagsâ€”for a program to see that magic &#8220;clusters&#8221; in different waysâ€”but the core problem will never go away. The advantages of taggingâ€”brevity, spontaneity, low barriers to entry, etc.â€”are also its disadvantages.</p>
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		<title>By: <![CDATA[Steve]]></title>
		<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1553</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://familymanlibrarian.com/?p=408#comment-1553</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Walt. I have to admit to not having read your article on this topic very closely, and I should have. I think &quot;balance&quot; is the word that best describes this approach.  It often seems like that is where I come down on an issue.  &#039;Course that could be termed &quot;wishy washy&quot; but, whatever.  I was thinking more about this the other day as I rode on the train on my home and realized, hey, trains are definitely &quot;old&quot; technology (invented, what, in the late 1700s?), yet they readily fill an important niche in the world of mass transportation to this very day, coexisting peacefully with much newer technology such as cars, buses, and airplanes.  Radio has not died out because of TV.  And so forth.  I think these analogies when pressed may have flaws but they are illustrative.  The diversification in the way people find information (that has always been there) is just continuing to expand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Walt. I have to admit to not having read your article on this topic very closely, and I should have. I think &#8220;balance&#8221; is the word that best describes this approach.  It often seems like that is where I come down on an issue.  &#8216;Course that could be termed &#8220;wishy washy&#8221; but, whatever.  I was thinking more about this the other day as I rode on the train on my home and realized, hey, trains are definitely &#8220;old&#8221; technology (invented, what, in the late 1700s?), yet they readily fill an important niche in the world of mass transportation to this very day, coexisting peacefully with much newer technology such as cars, buses, and airplanes.  Radio has not died out because of TV.  And so forth.  I think these analogies when pressed may have flaws but they are illustrative.  The diversification in the way people find information (that has always been there) is just continuing to expand.</p>
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		<title>By: <![CDATA[Walt]]></title>
		<link>http://www.familymanlibrarian.com/2006/03/06/are-folksonomies-really-the-better-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1552</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://familymanlibrarian.com/?p=408#comment-1552</guid>
		<description>&quot;After thinking about this further, I am wondering if Iâ€™m pursuing this from a logical point of view as an â€œeither/orâ€ situation. (Taxonomies or folksonomies.) Instead I think it is really, or will really be, a â€œboth/andâ€ situation.&quot;

That&#039;s certainly the conclusion I arrived at:
http://cites.boisestate.edu/v6i4a.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;After thinking about this further, I am wondering if Iâ€™m pursuing this from a logical point of view as an â€œeither/orâ€ situation. (Taxonomies or folksonomies.) Instead I think it is really, or will really be, a â€œboth/andâ€ situation.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s certainly the conclusion I arrived at:<br />
<a href="http://cites.boisestate.edu/v6i4a.htm" rel="nofollow">http://cites.boisestate.edu/v6i4a.htm</a></p>
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